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Swifties.
Stand back and stand by.

❄️ be tripping
#Swift #NFL #football #Kelce #taylor

@blamellors I’ve seen some photos that suggest she’s making a lot of men very happy at football games.

@nam @blamellors

this is why NAS gets blocked, not genius comments that lefties don't want to see cause they prove their ideology silly. but saying it's the latter makes for a much better complaint re free speech etc.

@nam @blamellors

cause he continues to push the Sandy Hook conspiracy and apparently has no idea how fucked up that is to those families. so I made a joke and maybe he felt some tiny percentage of what those families feel. when people are unrepentant bullies, you don't just let them keep doing that shit. he thinks AJ shouldn't have had to pay anything. you guys think the left should take the abuse. the only reason this shocks you is cause most lefties just run away by blocking the servers.

@wjmaggos @nam @blamellors

Feels are not reals. His statements caused no actual damage.

That being said, although I was not an AJ watcher before, I would not be after.

@amerika @blamellors @nam

bad feels can hurt. imagine some guy making the Taylor joke about your daughter. or posting the AI porn. you'd punch the fucker. instead people like Trump get looked up to. it's so weird.

Bunnyslope

@wjmaggos Well, I’d get angry. However, I’d also realize that I hadn’t done enough to protect her and my family, as well as realizing that there was literally zero that I could do about it. Streisand effect.

@amerika @blamellors @nam

@Bunnyslope @wjmaggos @blamellors @nam

Part of #darkpluralism is that you expect to encounter the horrifying and upsetting.

After all, it is part of life; we cannot separate the two. This is the root of "maturation."

I paraphrase the summary:

"Dark Pluralism asserts a negation of universal truths, values, and communications; the best we can do instead is not to tolerate but to accept each other."

https://www.corrupt.org/boards/index.php/topic,14.0.html

I want rabbis and nazis walking the same streets and having civil conversations. Until then, humanity is just monkeying around.
abreactionDark PluralismDark Pluralism

@amerika @blamellors @Bunnyslope @nam

part of #darkpluralism would also be a strong bias towards anonymity and assholes. IRL when people discuss things, we don't call each other slurs and tell them to die. we don't do hell threads. we developed IRL ways of interacting over time cause they work best. maybe something else would work better online. but your current proposal would just mean fewer people participate and they tend to think more like you than the average person. unintentional? IDK

@wjmaggos @blamellors @Bunnyslope @nam

I disagree. I think over time, people would calm down, stop being offended, and start simply muting those who are irrelevant to them for whatever reason.

Proof: this is what happened on BBSes and USENET.

@amerika @blamellors @Bunnyslope @nam

the world doesn't use BBSes/USENET. afaik those are closed communities that attract certain audiences. FSE can defederate if it wants. I want a world where everybody feels welcome on fedi. like someone feels welcome discussing issues in public places. we compromise to do that, especially if we want people who disagree with us to feel welcome. we try to find ways to say things people might not want to hear in ways they might tolerate. that's the full ask.

@amerika @blamellors @Bunnyslope @nam

your theory that over time, people will be fine with it, hasn't played out with more people being public about themselves on jerk fedi. and IRL, increasing crassness has just made more people crass and do more separating from each other (which fits your stated goal for the world, total coincidence I'm sure). how about we police for niceness first, get everyone here and used to diff opinions expressed well, then let everyone drop more slurs in a few years.

@wjmaggos @blamellors @Bunnyslope @nam

That is not what I am seeing, at all.

People are pulling back from both the censors and the antisocials.

In the middle is where most of the activity is occurring.

Just look at what happened to NAS. Most people are sort of rubbing elbows with the NS types, but not really engaging unless the topic leans that way.

@wjmaggos Incorrect. Sure BBS’ have pretty much disappeared, but Usenet is very much a thing. Is it as popular as it was 25 years ago? No. However the days of flamewars ended long ago as well. Why? Because people matured and saw that their actions had consequences. People found ways to deal with people without screaming back into the void.
If you want a world where everyone feels welcome because they won’t be offended, then you want a world without opinions.

@amerika @blamellors @nam

@Bunnyslope @amerika @blamellors @nam

doesn't USENET have admins and don't they moderate? or is it all up to individual? don't people decide where to go partially based on how annoying the people there are?

@wjmaggos @amerika @blamellors @nam Nope and nope.
No admins. Wild West. Completely unregulated. Individual newsgroups can be as general or granular as chosen by the posters. A number of them don’t have any relation to their title. alt.barney.die.die.die has nothing to do with Barney the Dinosaur or the TV show. Usenet and newsgroups are what you do or don’t make of them. Mainly communities of people who have an interest in the same topic(s). Me, I monitor probably 50 or so newsgroups.

@Bunnyslope @amerika @blamellors @nam

so could an individual mute other users? did people get tired of people on a server and start another one?

@wjmaggos @amerika @blamellors @nam No. Depending on your client/newsreader (really a misnomer) you could filter out the posts you weren’t interested in seeing. But there was no “Mute” or “Block” button.
You simply didn’t engage. When people are trolling, it’s for attention and engagement. When they don’t get it, they go away, or moderate their behavior.
This is where the very old saying “Don’t Feel the Trolls” comes from.
Also, other shorthand slurs like Foad, gfy, esad.

@Bunnyslope @amerika @blamellors @nam

I don't understand how it worked. if a school had a bbs and somebody wanted to be a jerk but not violate the law, what were their options and what could people do to avoid them? could the jerk see everybody using the system and tag them with mean stuff? who had access? was it possible for a kid to log in anonymously and tag everybody to say his teacher shit himself today?

@wjmaggos @amerika @blamellors @nam Again, too detailed to fully explain the mechanics of a BBS. Impractical for a single school to have a BBS. Imagine a central server with Forum software. It literally has tens or hundreds of phone numbers that can dial into the server. If it was full, you got a busy signal. Depending on how the admin set it up (anonymous, real name, obfuscated) you may or may not know who was saying what.

@amerika @wjmaggos @blamellors @Bunnyslope @nam it's just a file comtaining a list of names to filter from the feed.

we used to call it plonking or a plonkfile. When you were done talking to an idiot you'd just reply

plonk!
@wjmaggos @Bunnyslope @blamellors @nam

USENET has a few higher up admins who determine what newsgroups get approved and a few other technical issues.

Each USENET node determines its policies, including what newsgroups it carries.

People decide where to go by the topic of the newsgroup, and generally you spend a few days adjusting your killfile and then you have a personalized feed.
@Bunnyslope @wjmaggos @blamellors @nam

The killfile turned out to be superior to the tantrum. USENET evolved over time as a culture and community.

At first, people were far more partisan. As time went on, they filtered out those who antagonized them, and could have functional conversations with the rest. This maturation then expanded to the point of a type of functional pluralism where people of radically different outlooks could be civil to each other.

This was lost with social media, and now we are re-learning what was lost.

@amerika @wjmaggos @blamellors @nam Agreed. With Usenet it took sime work to filter out the truly horrible people. It wasn’t worth the effort to filter someone just because they said something that I simply didn’t agree with, or slightly offended my sensibilities. Social Media today is very much an echo chamber because it’s *too* easy to block/mute, and people aren’t exposed to differing views.

@Bunnyslope @amerika @blamellors @nam

how would you filter out someone? what's a killfile?

@Bunnyslope @wjmaggos @blamellors @nam

It was interestin because killfiles were first heavily used, and later more sparingly used.

The reason was that there was no point for most misbehavior. It was not rewarded with attention, so people went elsewhere if trolling.

Ironically, it was mega-trolls like the meowers who made this possible.
@Bunnyslope @wjmaggos @blamellors @nam

Also, for trivia, there is a thriving BBS community out there. I think it is hard to go back to one-node living instead of interfacing with the internet, but I could see FIDOnet -- with an interface update -- being a replacement for social media.

Funny how we keep fighting the same old battles in new form here at Humanity Inc.
@wjmaggos @blamellors @Bunnyslope @nam

I know it was before your time, but who do you think used BBSes?

It was a wide range of people. The Houston Museum of Natural Science got astronomy students calling. The Medugorje people convinced thousands of Catholics from all walks of life to call. Schools used them. Some were for horrorscopes, some were chats, some were porn, and so on.

In short, ordinary people used BBSes. USENET was standard for people on the internet back in the day, mostly college, telecom corp, and military. But these were normal people too.

There is no reason to differentiate the audience here.

A world where everybody feels welcome on the fediverse is one that excludes anything but happy opinions welcoming everyone.

That is both itself a type of lie, in that it is not representative of reality, and discriminatory.

@amerika @blamellors @Bunnyslope @nam

if somebody on a school bbs or usenet posted slurs, what would happen?

@wjmaggos @amerika @blamellors @nam I’m not sure that you understand the mechanics of how BBS’ worked.
It would come down to how it was set up and who was on.

@wjmaggos @blamellors @Bunnyslope @nam

Depends on who the sysadmin is. If the school controlled the BBS, there might be penalties in the disciplinary system as well.

Then again, we are talking about children, am I correct?
@wjmaggos @blamellors @Bunnyslope @nam

I recall the ability to mention people by username and have it show up in their notifications, but it varied with the software.

BBS software was easily user-modified, and has a lot of variation itself anyway.

@amerika @wjmaggos @blamellors @nam And not as easily as Fedi, X, Facebook. It took effort.

@Bunnyslope @wjmaggos @blamellors @nam

In the same way, the Fediverse requires more effort that just signing up for a Twitter, Reddit, Hackernews, or Facebook account.
@dcc @Bunnyslope @blamellors @nam @wjmaggos

True, the big services make it ultra-easy and the fediverse does not even require much wizardry.

The difference really seems to me to be that the fediverse has a more complicated interaction, so it is more daunting to non-technical people.

Look at this place, it's a nerd herd ;)

@amerika @blamellors @Bunnyslope @nam

so what I'm hearing is that it was/is a very different system that would not allow a worldwide network of anonymous people to easily search out others to tag with die slur in such a way that their only recourse was to individually block/mute them, only for them to use another account and do it again. correct?

cause that's what I have a problem with and think the "no policing" people here want. and it seems comparing the two doesn't shed light on anything.

I'm sorry @amerika but this is a pattern with you. claim you have an example that shows your way is the best, keep pounding it into everyone's heads, but then when looked into, it's not comparable at all. the different details really fucking matter. and we're left wondering (maybe just me) if you really believe what you're saying or just hoping people will push those changes so you'll get what you want, but you know it would actually be nothing like you promised.

@blamellors @Bunnyslope @nam

@wjmaggos @blamellors @Bunnyslope @nam

It might be helpful for you to review the history here: I am talking about the literal ancestors of what we have now, and how they worked and overcame problems that we also face.

All computer-mediated communication is very similar, when you break it down.

BBS users frequently called multiple BBSes in their local areas, which is why we had dial lists. You queued them up and saw which boards were answering.

That was a networked community, and FIDOnet and uucp took it even further.

@wjmaggos @amerika @blamellors @nam Kinda, sorta, not really.
Usenet and newsgroups are like NAS, only much larger, so the comparison is apt.

You can find people and interact with them, it’s just…different.
So far as creating a new account, it was much easier to filter the douches out, so there wasn’t a point in creating a new account just to be a troll.
Because everyone had to be somewhat computer literate to be on Usenet (or a BBS), users were competent in dealing with others.

@Bunnyslope @amerika @blamellors @nam

I get how NAS might be like usenet, but I am talking about the fedi generally. that's the biggest part of where his comparison doesn't make sense imo. unless there is fediblocking, what one server does can affect others. that's not true on a bbs afaik. even NAS instituted a check process to try to make sure new accounts were listeners. imo people who want almost zero rules on harassment on the fedi (and no server blocks) just want it to stay small or fail.

@wjmaggos
For this discussion BBS' don't apply. They're usually smaller communities, controlled by owners. Usenet is like the Fedi. Newsgroups are like NAS, or POA.ST For all intents and purposes, Usenet & Newsgroups are wide open. No blocks, no requirements to join a newsgroup. Literally like lurking on any platform, and interacting with whomever you please. Usenet is even more decentralized than the fedi. You can't take down a group, & posts can exist for years. @amerika @blamellors @nam

@wjmaggos
…or even decades. Probably what separates Usenet from social media as it exists today, is that in order to get access to read posts, you can sign up with a provider for free or you can pay for it. Providers who offer free accounts typically don’t see all the newsgroups and retention (how long the provider keeps the posts) can be measured in days or months.

@amerika @blamellors @nam

@wjmaggos @amerika @blamellors @nam Providers that offer paid accounts can usually see all the newsgroups and retention is in years or decades. Some providers will simply not pull in the feeds from newsgroups that are too spammy, dead, or they have an issue with. So, in that case, what happens in one group does affect what others can see.
Additionally, where tagging is generally not a thing, you can cross-post to any number of other groups when you post.

@wjmaggos
The information and shear volume of posts can sometimes feel like a firehose of data, especially when you first start out.
@amerika @blamellors @nam

@Bunnyslope @amerika @blamellors @nam

gotcha. if there's no tagging, no way to push something at me that I might not want to see like a slur, and no way to fill someone else's feed with stuff they don't want, it's not what I'm concerned about here.

even those things at an individual level are not my concern. it's when that can become so common for everyone or some group that it makes the overall network annoying to use for them. so they won't. it becomes censorship by another method.

@wjmaggos
The "feed" is literally all the posts in a newsgroup. So your feed is everyone else's feed. To put it in Mastodon parlance...
Usenet is like the Federated Timeline...You get everything (religous, cats, porn, snuff, etc.)
Newsgroups are like the Local Timeline...everything posted *there*.
Filtering is like the Mute/Block function...you'll never see what you don't want to.
That's why you should pick your Instance (newsgroups) carefully.
@amerika @blamellors @nam

@Bunnyslope @wjmaggos @blamellors @nam

If you want to analogize, the newsgroup names are tags.

If you want to go to alt.rock-n-roll.metal.death and post ethnic slurs, anyone who wants to talk about death metal gets hit by them.

There was even a group alt.fan.n*****s which was dedicated to being an early poa.st.
poa.stPoast
@Bunnyslope @wjmaggos @blamellors @nam

Non-technical people might miss how the Fediverse is just the latest incarnation of a series of protocols like NNTP and FIDOnet which spread posts from local nodes to worldwide systems.
@wjmaggos @Bunnyslope @blamellors @nam

No, if you want to hit someone with something they do not want to see, you just reply to their posts or post into newsgroups they use.
@Bunnyslope @wjmaggos @blamellors @nam

I have to disagree here -- people used multiple BBSes and spread content between them -- because of similarity in how topics were handled.

You could go onto a big BBS and post a message that would hit a generalized audience who would then spread it to others. You could post a text file, even in the AE days, that then made its way through the network.

If you read some of the background on these protocols, you will see how most of the old internet protocols were inspired by the BBS days, and social media was inspired by USENET and IRC.

@amerika
Yeah, poor choice of words. Mot that it doesn't apply, but I was trying to get across the point that Usenet & BBS aren't intertwineable for the purpose of comparison to the fediverse.
@wjmaggos @blamellors @nam

@Bunnyslope @wjmaggos @blamellors @nam

They are its ancestors, and so we can trace the patterns of this behavior to the present.

Kind of fascinating how the past is not even past, as some writer said once.

@amerika @blamellors @Bunnyslope @nam

so what did it take to post to a newsgroup or bbs? and what exactly did meower do? I mean we even used to have to pay for phone minutes back then. and they'd be pissed you were using the line. it wasn't like keeping open a browser window all day to shit post. you claim it was some kind of cultural evolution when there were so many other factors. if people could key cars with drones with no repercussions, it would happen more. same number of assholes.

@wjmaggos @Bunnyslope @blamellors @nam

USENET servers blocked each other if there was a flood of bad traffic, usually for technical reasons.

IMHO those who want zero rules on the fediverse want it to succeed by not repeating the mistakes of social media.
@Bunnyslope @wjmaggos @blamellors @nam

These were just mentally stronger users as well, in my recollection.

There was an anti-whiner culture which encouraged people to become better versions of themselves.
@wjmaggos @blamellors @Bunnyslope @nam

Technically, it is basically the same system.

It would easily allow for what you describe, and we know because Meowers and others did it.